For a couple of people who work in tech, Ed and I argue over grammar and usage a lot. We’re currently working on an upcoming post for the Widgets Blog, and got into it over the English use of the French word “naitre,” as in “nee.” I originally used it in the French masculine (“ne”), which Ed then changed to the feminine (“nee”). At which point, the following IM conversation ensued:
Ed Voas: i guess i did.
Me: ok
Ed Voas: but i suppose it doesn’t need to be
Ed Voas: just so used to seeing it that way
Me: conformist
Ed Voas: in fact, i think in its english use, it’s always nee
Me: no
Ed Voas: yes
Me: u and arlo decide if u want it to be an homme or femme
Ed Voas: hey, we don’t speak french here, and according to even dictionary.com, nee can simply mean “formerly known as” and there is no entry for ne.
Me: oh, and dictionary.com is such an authority
Me: i heard it just replaced the OED as the scrabble bible
Ed Voas: well, the cite is from AHD, so suck it
Me: im going to blog this and have a poll
Ed Voas: ok. good luck with that.
Ed Voas: and the next time you use “begs the question” wrong, we’ll see if anyone cares
Ed Voas: or “moot”
Me: i use moot correctly
Me: we established that
Ed Voas: point being, you suck
Ed Voas: i should be a debater
Ed Voas: and in conclusion, neener.
Me: oh thats totally going in my post!
Ed Voas: the 6 of us will appreciate that
I think Ed is technically right in that English has totally bastardized the correct usage of the French original. But, that’s not a reason to give in. I’m standing on principle that a foreign word should retain it’s usage rules when appropriated in another language — even if those rules are not normally applicable in the new language (e.g. the gender of an object).
Nerdy enough for ya? Weigh in below to help us decide the battle of the grammar-inclined Widgeteers.
ok, here’s my take.
ever see the SNL skit where they had VERY anglo people order “burrrrrritttttooooss” with such emphasis on trying to sound hip with their knowledge of Spanish? If you havent, it doesnt matter– pick any comedy where people’s accents are parodied. My point is that people feel using words in ways that seem particularly forced or rule-bound is either hoity-toity or hilarious.
Sorry to side with your opponenent, but he’s right. Language is meant to be natural, and grammarians ruin it for the rest of us. 🙂
btw, i just figured out why you only “izzle” your last name as I was about to write your first name in Snoop-talk! 🙂
Shit, I meant to cite that sketch in the original post but got distracted. It’s a fantastic one with Jimmy Smits. I was actually trying to find it online to link to when I was writing this post, but it looks like NBC has successfully c&d’ed all the video clips that contain the term snl.
Ed’s right, sheesh man – you wanna force speakers of one language to know and adhere to the rules of the source language every word comes from? That’s madness, dude!
Nice job getting the little link to this post in the official post, though. That has to count for something! 🙂
I did think of a word where English speakers prefer the French pronunciation. A filmmaker makes an “homage” to another in the French styling– not in the style in English of a vassal paying “homage” to a vassal.
And, further, don’t most people use half-English/half-French when they say “mise en scene.” Maybe thats just me, though, and everybody thinks i sound like an idiot?
Also, I missed that one could SAFELY Snoopify ur first name as a simple jonizzle. The problem is only if you go by John.
I love the posted conversation! Always fun(ny) to observe an argument about usage and/or grammar.
Although, I will say, the English language didn’t pop up out of nowhere. The native British tongue stems from Germanic tribes (Angles, Saxons, etc), Latin-speaking occupants during the Roman Empire, and French when they ran things. This is just to say that it WAS the borrowing, mispronunciations, permutations, and morphings of words that drove the development of the language.
Originally, “bird” was spelled “brid”! And “nickname” comes from the phrase “an eke name” (an “also”/”other” name). “Nee” is a minor example, but if we relied on the original rules for language use (in foreign languages OR our own), we wouldn’t have English. Not to mention, where do you draw the line? With “new” words from other languages? With their original introduction? How they’re used in 2007, or in 1807? And, what about French rule-breakers, those who ignore certain gender and case usages as a matter of simplicity (which is basically what happened in OUR language).
It’s just impossible to NOT get sucked into a discussion about usage! It’s interesting to talk about who gets to make the rules, and who can (or can’t) break them.
(P.S. A split infinitive was not considered taboo in English until Latin rules of grammar were transferred to the language, in the 1700s.)
I think it all goes back to etymology. The word entered English in a feminine context, used to identify a woman’s maiden name. Therefore when the usage was adapted to refer to other objects the spelling remained in the feminine form, nee.